When Everything Is Antisemitism, Nothing Is Antisemitism

The man who literally wrote the modern definition of antisemitism speaks out about the use, and misuse, of the term to shut down important conversation.

Kenneth Stern is the Director of Bard College Center for the Study of Hate. Before that he was the Executive Director of the Justus & Karin Rosenberg Foundation and the Director of Antisemitism, Hate Studies, and Extremism for the American Jewish Committee.

Mr. Stern literally drafted the definition of antisemitism that we all use today, which originated from the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance.

Since yesterday (May 6th, 2024) was Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day), I thought it would be worth revisiting his work.

So, when Mr. Stern says to Christiane Amanpour on an episode of Amanpour & Company that, “when everything is antisemitism, nothing is antisemitism" that’s something everyone in Southern Orange County, Rockland County, and Sullivan County, should pay attention to.

Because as most of you are no doubt familiar, when hanhallah (Aaron Teitelbaum, Zalman Teitelbaum, and their associated macchers) do not get what they wants, the first thing that gets brought up is the Holocaust. The second are claims of antisemitism.

Before we get to Mr. Stern’s interview, I have a quick community announcement to make:

In Washingtonville on Thursday (5/9) there will be a blood drive at the Knights of Columbus (18 Hallock Dr, Washingtonville, NY 10992) starting at 9am. If you’re able to give blood, I hope you’ll consider stopping by to donate. Earlier this year, the American Red Cross declared an emergency blood shortage, so there is a dire need for people to step up and volunteer if they can do so.

Watch The Interview Below

Full Interview Transcript via PBS. I have highlighted the most relevant section below and included a link to Mr. Stern’s op-ed, but otherwise the transcript is exactly as presented by PBS.

Amanpour: AND AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, THE CRISIS ACROSS AMERICA'S CAMPUSES IS MAKING SOME WRESTLE WITH THE CURRENT DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM, AS WRITTEN BY THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE.

IT IS A DEFINITION THAT'S BEEN ADOPTED BY COUNTRIES ACROSS THE GLOBE.

NEXT, MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS (MM) TO THE AUTHOR, KENNETH STERN (KS), WHO LED THE DRAFTING OF THAT DOCUMENT, AND NOW WARNS IT IS BEING USED TO CHILL FREE SPEECH.

MM: THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

KENNETH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING

KS: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

MM: I JUST WANT TO MENTION THAT YOU HAVE A DISTINGUISHED CAREER AS A TRIAL LAWYER, AS AN AUTHOR, AS A HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST, BUT WHAT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MIGHT KNOW ABOUT YOU IS THAT YOU WERE THE LEAD DRAFTER OF THE LEADING DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

WHY YOU DRAFTED THIS, WHAT'S THE ORIGIN STORY OF THIS?

KS: AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE PEACE PROCESS IN 2000, THERE WAS AN UPTICK IN ATTACKS ON JEWS, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE, IN THE UNITED STATES, TOO, BUT MOSTLY IN EUROPE, AND THERE WAS A GROUP CALLED THE EUROPEAN MONITORING CENTER THAT WAS TASKED WITH DOING REPORTS ABOUT RACISM, XENOPHOBIA AND ANTI-SEMITISM, AND IT PUT OUT A REPORT AT THE END OF 2004 THAT FOUND, IN FACT, THAT SOME OF THE ATTACKS WERE BY NOT ONLY THE TRADITIONAL SUSPECTS, WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND OTHERS, BUT ALSO BY YOUNG ARAB AND MUSLIM FOLKS, IN SOME OUTSKIRTS OF PARIS AND OTHER PLACES LIKE THAT.

SO, THE DATA WAS RIGHT, BUT THEY SAID, WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN THAT WE HAVE ALL THESE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE COLLECTING INFORMATION, AND NO COMMON SCORESHEET, NO COMMON DEFINITION OF WHAT TO LOOK AT.

AND THEN THEY ALSO SAID, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A TEMPORARY DEFINITION THAT'S GOING TO LOOK AT ISSUES OF ANTI-SEMITISM BASED ON STEREOTYPES ABOUT JEWS, AND THEY WENT THROUGH THAT EXERCISE AND SAID, WHAT DO WE DO IF A JEW IS ATTACKED ON THE STREETS OF A EUROPEAN CITY AS A STAND-IN FOR AN ISRAELI?

AND SOMEBODY HAD THE STEREOTYPES AND APPLIED THEM TO ISRAELIS AND REAPPLIED THEM TO JEWS, THAT WAS ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT NOT IF THEY WERE UPSET WITH ISRAELI POLICY.

THEY SAID, THAT'S LAMENTABLE, BUT SHOULD NOT BE COUNTED.

AND THAT STRUCK ME AS NUTS, BASICALLY, BECAUSE I GREW UP AT THE TIME OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, AND I CAN'T IMAGINE SOMEBODY SAYING, WELL, LYNCHING SOME BLACK PERSON IS RACIST IF THEY HAVE THE STEREOTYPES ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE, BUT NOT IF THEY WERE UPSET BY A POLITICAL EVENT.

SO, IT JUST SO HAPPENED THAT THE DIRECTOR OF THE EUROPEAN MONITORING CENTER WAS INVITED BY A COLLEAGUE TO COME TO THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE WHERE I WORKED FOR ITS ANNUAL MEETING TO TALK BROADLY WITH OTHERS ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN EUROPE, AND AS WE SAW THEN, AS WE SEE NOW, THERE'S SOME DISCOURSE ABOUT ISRAEL THAT'S CORRELATED WITH ATTACKS ON JEWS, NOT NECESSARILY CAUSATION, BUT WE THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO TAKE THE TEMPERATURE.

THERE WERE OTHER REASONS FOR THE DEFINITION, TOO, BUT THAT'S HOW IT STARTED AND THAT'S WHY THERE ARE EXAMPLES INSIDE THE DEFINITION.

MM: I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THE OP-ED YOU WROTE A FEW WEEKS AGO.

YOU SAY THAT THE TERM IS NOW BEING USED -- IT'S NOW BEING WEAPONIZED, ACTUALLY, TO MUZZLE FREE SPEECH ON CAMPUS.

COULD YOU JUST EXPLAIN HOW THE TERM, OR THE FRAMEWORK THAT YOU WROTE, IS NOW BEING WEAPONIZED, AND WHY YOU FIND THAT DANGEROUS?

KS: WELL, THE -- THE LANGUAGE OF THE DEFINITION WAS BEING STARTED TO BE USED IN TITLE 6 CASES AFTER 2010, AND IT WAS LOOKING AT ISSUES OF WHAT A PROFESSOR WAS TEACHING, WHAT SPEAKERS WERE COMING INTO CAMPUS, WHAT TEXTS WERE BEING ASSIGNED, THINGS THAT CLEARLY ARE THE HEART OF ACADEMIC FREEDOM, AND MY CONCERN IS THAT THE PUSHING OF THIS, ESPECIALLY IN TITLE SIX CASES, I'M NOT PARTICULARLY WORRIED ABOUT THE CASES THEMSELVES, THOUGH, I AM WORRIED ABOUT HOW SOME OF THEM ARE GOING TO BE LITIGATED, THE PRESSURE IS ON ADMINISTRATORS, WHEN THEY KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE POISED TO SUE, WHEN CERTAIN SPEECH IS HAPPENING ON A CAMPUS THAT MAY TRIGGER SOMETHING TO FILE A TITLE SIX CASE.

THEY'RE MORE LIKELY TO TRY TO SUPPRESS THAT SPEECH OR COUNTER THAT SPEECH, BECAUSE PART OF WHAT THEY DO, IN THEIR DAY JOB, IS TO PROTECT THE UNIVERSITY FROM BEING SUED.

SO, I SEE IT AS NOT JUST A LEGAL QUESTION, I SEE IT AS INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO CREATE A CHILLING EFFECT, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

YOU DON'T USE INSTRUMENTS OF LAW TO SUPPRESS SPEECH.

AND IT'S ALSO BECOMING A SYMBOL, IN A WAY THAT'S REALLY TROUBLING TO ME, TOO, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BEING CONCERNED ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM, WHICH IS THE WORK I'VE BEEN DOING FOR DECADES.

ONCE WE TRY TO REDUCE THINGS INTO, IS THIS ANTI-SEMITISM OR NOT, WE'RE LOSING FOCUS ON SO MANY THINGS ABOUT HOW ANTI-SEMITISM WORKS IN THE REAL WORLD.

WE'D ALL CONSIDER THE TREE OF LIFE SHOOTING, CLEARLY ANTI-SEMITIC, BUT THE SHOOTER AT THE WALMART IN EL PASO A FEW MONTHS LATER HAD THE SAME IDEOLOGY, WAS WORRIED ABOUT THE FEVERED PITCH ASH IMMIGRANTS DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY, WE LOOK AT ONE AS ANTI-SEMITISM, WE DON'T LOOK AT THE OTHER AS ANTI-SEMITISM.

WHEN I TALK TO SYNAGOGUES, AND I SAY, JUST CONCERNED ABOUT ANTI-SEMITISM, WHAT CONCERNS ME MOST IS NOT NECESSARILY WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT JEWS, IT'S WHAT POLITICIANS AND OTHERS ARE SAYING ABOUT ANYONE AMONG US AS A DANGER.

THE -- WHETHER IT'S IMMIGRANTS OR MUSLIMS OR OTHERS, BECAUSE ONCE YOU PRIME THAT PUMP, THAT INEVITABLY LEADS TO PEOPLE GETTING INTO THESE BUCKETS OF THINKING THAT ARE SORT OF CONVEYOR BELTS TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

ON TOP OF THAT, I WORK WITH THE AMERICAN JEWISH COMMITTEE FOR 25 YEARS.

I GUARDED THE TERM ANTI-SEMITISM.

TO HAVE A STING, IT HAS TO BE USED IN ONLY THE CLEAREST CASES.

I WOULD DEFAULT -- NOW, THERE'S A PUSH TO MAKE IT ALMOST UBIQUITOUS, AND WHEN EVERYTHING BECOMES ANTI-SEMITIC, NOTHING IS ANTI-SEMITIC, AND IT MAKES IT HARDER TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

MM: LOOK, IF EVERYTHING IS ANTI-SEMITISM, THAN NOTHING IS ANTI-SEMITISM, BUT HAVING SAID THAT, DOES THE FRAMEWORK STILL HAVE UTILITY?

LIKE, IS THERE -- IS THERE STILL A NEED FOR THIS?

OR IS THAT -- OR HAS IT GONE SO FAR IN ITS MISUSE THAT IT NO LONGER HAS UTILITY?

KS: WELL, I THINK THERE ARE VARIOUS DEFINITIONS.

SOME OF THEM ARE BETTER, SOME OF THEM ARE MORE LIKELY TO STOP PRO-PALESTINIAN SPEECH, AT LEAST ABUSED, WHICH IS HOW I SEE THE, YOU KNOW, THE DEFINITION BEING ENGAGED, BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE ALSO AT CORE THE BASIC IDEA THAT ANTI-SEMITISM IS CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT JEWS HARMING HUMANITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, GIVING AN EXPLANATION FOR WHAT GOES WRONG IN THE WORLD.

BUT AGAIN, I DON'T WANT, YOU KNOW, THE SHORT CUTS TO BE USED TO LOOK AT SPEECH, AND THE -- I LOOK AT IT, IMAGINE IF ONE PUT TOGETHER A DEFINITION OF RACISM.

THAT WOULD TAKE INTO ACCOUNT SOME POLITICAL THINGS THAT MAY AFFECT RACISM.

NOT TO SAY IF YOU SAY THESE THINGS THEY ARE INHERENTLY RACIST, BUT THEY MAY BE THINGS TO CONSIDER.

OPPOSITION TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, OPPOSITION OF BLACK LIVES MATTER, THAT MIGHT BE THE TEMPERATURE OF RACISM TO PUT INTO SURVEYS AND SO FORTH.

WOULD YOU WANT TO THEN HAVE A HATE SPEECH CODE IN EFFECT, LET ALONE ENDORSED BY CONGRESS, THAT SAYS ONE HAS THIS PARTICULAR VIEW ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES, THEY ARE THEREFORE EXPRESSING RACISM?

I DON'T THINK SO.

AND YOU'D SEE THE DAMAGE THAT THAT WOULD DO TO THE ABILITY TO EVEN LOOK AT THESE THINGS ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, AND THOSE ARE THE SAME CONCERNS I HAVE ABOUT THE USE OF THESE DEFINITIONS.

IN THIS CONTEXT.

MM: THIS IS KIND OF EXACTLY THE ISSUE THAT WE SEE AT PLAY NOW, AS THESE DEMONSTRATIONS ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES HAVE, YOU KNOW, SPREAD REALLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

I JUST -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS SORT OF THE ARGUMENT THAT WE ARE BEING TOLD, THIS IS BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, AN ARGUMENT BETWEEN FREE SPEECH AND STUDENT SAFETY.

DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY?

KS: ADMITTEDLY, A COMPLICATED ISSUE, BUT I SEE THE, YOU KNOW, STUDENTS SHOULD BE SAFE FROM HARASSMENT, FROM INTIMIDATION, FROM BULLYING, FROM DISCRIMINATION, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY FIT INTO ONE OF THE, YOU KNOW, THE CLASSIFICATIONS LEGALLY.

ANY STUDENT SHOULD BE PROTECTED FROM THOSE THINGS.

BUT STUDENTS SHOULD BE PREPARED, AND THE UNIVERSITIES SHOULD STRESS, THAT STUDENTS ARE GOING TO HEAR THINGS THEY FIND DISTURBING.

I HEAR A LOT OF THE CHANTS AND THINGS DISTURBING, BUT IF THEY'RE NOT BEING MADE AS PART OF A THREAT, JUST A QUESTION OF EXPRESSION, THAT HAS TO BE PROTECTED.

PART OF THE BACKGROUND TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW WAS THE PUSH TO OUTLAW STUDENTS FOR JUSTICE IN PALESTINE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, I DISAGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, BUT I DON'T WANT THEM BANNED.

DeSANTIS DID THAT IN FLORIDA, NOT BASED ON ANYTHING THEY DID, JUST IN TERMS ON WHAT THEY WERE SAYING.

AND SO, THAT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY I YOU THIS WE'RE SEEING SOME OF THE UPTICK NOW, AND THE RESPONSE IS, THERE'S BEEN A LACK OF CLARITY.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO SAY THINGS THAT WE FIND, YOU KNOW, OFFENSIVE, WE'RE GOING TO USE THE ASSETS OF THE INSTITUTION TO TEACH ABOUT IT, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO SUSPEND YOU OR DISCIPLINE YOU FOR THINGS THAT YOU SAY.

MM: WHAT IS THE LINE?

BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY, SOME SPEECH IS ALREADY CRIMINAL CONDUCT.

IF A PERSON THREATENS TO KILL YOU, RIGHT, YOU CAN -- MAKES A CREDIBLE THREAT TO KILL SOMEBODY, YOU CAN BE ARRESTED FOR THAT.

THAT'S ALREADY A CRIME.

SO, WHERE DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE UNIVERSITIES HAVE KIND OF GONE OFF THE RAILS?

KS: YEAH, I MEAN, IF SOMEBODY MAKES A SPECIFIC THREAT TO A PERSON, I'M GOING TO KILL YOU, AND IT'S A DIRECT, IMMEDIATE THREAT, THAT'S OBVIOUSLY A PROBLEM.

THERE WAS A CASE A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO IN CALIFORNIA, SOMEBODY FOUND THE NAMES OF EVERYBODY THAT SOUNDED LIKE AN ASIAN STUDENT, ASIAN AMERICAN STUDENT AND PUT OUT AN EMAIL TO ALL OF THEM SAYING, I'M GOING TO MAKE IT MY MISSION IN LIFE TO HUNT YOU DOWN AND KILL YOU.

HE GOT CONVICTED APPROPRIATELY.

IF I STAND UP AND SAY SOMETHING DEPLORABLE ABOUT ZIONISTS OR ISRAELIS OR ANY GROUP, THAT'S NOTHING MORE THAN SPEECH, THAT SHOULD BE COUNTERED, BUT IT SHOULDN'T BE DISCIPLINED, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LOSING.

MM: ONE OF THE SORT OF KEY FLASH POINTS, I THINK, WOULD BE AROUND, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, RIGHT?

PALESTINE SHOULD BE FREE, FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, RIGHT?

SOME PEOPLE ARE INTERPRETING THAT AS A BELIEF THAT ISRAEL SHOULDN'T EXIST.

NOW, UNDER THE DEFINITION, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE DEFINITIONS OF ANTI-SEMITISM UNDER THE FRAMEWORK WAS DENYING THE JEWISH PEOPLE THEIR RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION, EG, BY CLAIMING THAT THE EXISTENCE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS A RACIST ENDEAVOR.

RIGHT?

THAT IS ONE OF, SORT OF THE DEFINITIONS, BUT PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE THAT PHRASE, SOME OF THEM SAY, THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS THAT -- THEY BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE A MULTI-ETHNIC, MULTI-RELIGIOUS DEMOCRACY LIKE THE UNITED STATES.

THAT WAS KIND OF THE HINGE UPON WHICH THAT CONGRESSIONAL HEARING, WHERE SOME OF THE, YOU KNOW, CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS WERE HAMMERING ON THE PRESIDENTS OF A NUMBER OF THE UNIVERSITIES, AND SAYING THAT THEY WERE INSUFFICIENTLY ZEALOUS ABOUT GUARDING AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM AND GENOCIDE.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

KS: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THE -- THAT DECEMBER 5th HEARING WAS REALLY A SETUP IN A LOT OF WAYS, AND I FOUND IT VERY OFFENSIVE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO WOULDN'T CRITICIZE PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR HOSTING HOLOCAUST DENIER, WOULDN'T CRITICIZE HIM FOR SAYING IMMIGRANTS ARE POISONING THE BLOOD OF THE COUNTRY, NOW APPARENTLY CARE ABOUT ISSUES LIKE ANTI-SEMITISM.

AND WHAT THEY SET UP WAS THIS, YOU KNOW, CLAIM THAT FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA MEANS GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS, AND ARE YOU GOING TO STOP CLAIMS FOR GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS?

SPEECH IS DEPLORABLE, YOU DON'T DISCIPLINE PEOPLE FOR IT, YOU USE THE ASSETS OF THE UNIVERSITY, YOU KNOW, TO GO AGAINST IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A POLL THAT CAME OUT THAT, WHAT WAS IT, 66% OF JEWISH STUDENTS HEAR FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA AS GENOCIDE AGAINST JEWS, AND I FIND THAT -- THAT PHRASE DISTURBING, TOO.

I'M A ZIONIST, I BELIEVE IN THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, AND SOME ARE USING IT TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, PRECISELY THAT THERE SHOULD BE NO RIGHT OF JEWS TO EXIST IN THAT AREA.

HOWEVER, 14% OF MUSLIMS, ONLY 14% OF MUSLIM STUDENTS SURVEYED SEE THAT AS A CALL FOR GETTING RID OF JEWS OR GENOCIDE.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S PART OF THE -- THE CHALLENGE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE HEARING DIFFERENT THINGS AT THE MOMENT.

AND I HAVE A COLLEAGUE AT BARD WHO WAS REALIZING THAT PEOPLE WERE THROWING AROUND TERMS LIKE ANTI-SEMITISM, GENOCIDE, ETHNIC CLEANSING, SETTLER COLONIALISM, AS WEAPONS, AND WE'RE IN A COLLEGE.

SO, SHE PUT TOGETHER A CLASS, I'M TEACHING THE SESSION ON ANTI-SEMITISM LATER THIS WEEK, WHAT DO THESE WORDS MEAN?

HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND THEM?

WHY DO PEOPLE HEAR THEM DIFFERENTLY?

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT A UNIVERSITY SHOULD DO.

IT SHOULDN'T SAY, HERE'S A STATEMENT THAT'S GOING TO GET YOU INTO DISCIPLINE FOR -- AS LONG AS IT'S NOT A TRUE THREAT.

MM: MUSLIM STUDENTS, MUSLIM PEOPLE IN GENERAL, HAVE HAD THIS COMPLAINT FOR SOME TIME ABOUT WORDS THAT ARE IMPORTANT IN THEIR CULTURE AND THEIR TRADITIONS THAT THEY FEEL LIKE HAD BEEN MISUSED.

JIHAD.

THAT CAN MEAN, LIKE, A JIHAD AGAINST BAD HABITS, WE'RE GOING TO WAGE A, YOU KNOW, WAR AGAINST BAD HABITS OF OUR OWN, AND THEY FEEL LIKE, WELL, WHY DO OTHER PEOPLE GET TO DEFINE WHAT WE THINK WITHOUT ASKING US WHAT WE MEAN BY THOSE WORDS?

SO, HOW DO YOU REDEFINE WORDS THAT HAVE BEEN CLAIMED FOR CERTAIN MEANINGS?

KS: WELL, AND IT'S NOT NEW, I MEAN, IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT THE CASE HERE.

YOU SEE IT AROUND POLITICS, ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, ABORTION.

I RUN A HATE STUDIES CENTER, AND I THINK, ESPECIALLY ON HOT BUTTON ISSUES, WHERE YOUR IDENTITY IS TETHERED TO AN ISSUE OF PERCEIVED SOCIAL JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE, WE FOLLOW FROM BRAIN SCIENCE AND SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY AND OTHER FIELDS, INFORMED HATE STUDIES, WHAT HAPPENS TO HUMAN BEINGS?

WE GET INTO THESE SORT OF US VERSUS THEM BUCKETS, WE CRAVE SIMPLICITY, WE CRAVE CERTAINTY, WE CRAVE SYMBOLS.

AND PART OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING AROUND THE QUESTION OF THE DEFINITION AND OTHER THINGS, ARE SYMBOLS.

AND WE DON'T WANT TO ENGAGE IN THE COMPLEXITY OF WHY THESE THINGS ARE SO CONTENTIOUS.

WE WANT SOMEBODY TO TELL US WHAT SIDE OF A LEDGER WE SHOULD PUT IT ON, AND THAT'S PART OF THE CONCERN I HAVE ABOUT THE PUSH OF THE I.R.A. DEFINITION, AND THERE ARE A COUPLE OF BILLS IN FRONT OF CONGRESS AT THE MOMENT THAT ARE CONSIDERING USING IT MORE FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES, ALSO FOR FUNDING ISSUES, AND IN EUROPE, TOO.

AND I DON'T SEE THAT AS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I OBJECT TO, AGAIN WHAT GOVERNOR DeSANTIS, WHAT HE'S DOING IN FLORIDA ABOUT, WHAT DO WE TEACH ABOUT GENDER WHAT DO WE TEACH ABOUT RACE?

I MAY NOT AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S BEING TAUGHT, BUT I DON'T WANT THE STATE TO DEFINE WHAT'S OKAY TO TEACH AND WHAT ISN'T?

I WANT FACULTY AND STUDENTS AND, YOU KNOW, UNIVERSITIES TO DO THAT.

AND ANTI-SEMITISM WAS A REAL PROBLEM, AND THERE ARE JEWISH STUDENTS WHO ARE BEING INTIMIDATED, BUT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH IT IS NOT TO USE LAW TO TRY TO SUPPRESS SPEECH WE DON'T LIKE.

IT'S TO ENCOURAGE STUDENTS, HOW TO TREAT EACH OTHER.

HOW TO REALIZE THAT WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME COMMUNITY TOGETHER, IT'S NOT A COMPETITION, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN FACULTY AND STUDENTS.

HOW DO WE ENGAGE THIS MOMENT TOGETHER?

AND WHY DON'T WE HAVE THE INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY?

AREN'T YOU CURIOUS WHY THEY HAVE THAT VIEW?

CAN YOU HAVE EMOTIONAL EMPATHY TO IMAGINE YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES?

SO, THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF THINGS THAT I THINK WE NEED TO FOCUS ON AS OPPOSED TO WHAT WORDS SHOULD BE, YOU KNOW, TO GET THEM INTO TROUBLE.

MM: AS WE ARE SPEAKING NOW, IT'S THE END OF THE SEMESTER, GRADUATIONS ARE AFOOT, IN SOME PLACES, STUDENTS ARE BEING ARRESTED, THEY'RE SAYING, THEY ARE GIVING THEM SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS, IF YOU DON'T LEAVE BY X TIME, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ARRESTED, THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED IN A NUMBER OF PLACES.

SO, IF YOU WERE ADVISING UNIVERSITY PRESIDENTS WHO ARE ADDRESSING THIS, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED, WHAT WOULD YOU DO NOW?

KS: IT'S A TOUGH QUESTION.

I'M GLAD I'M NOT IN THEIR SEATS, BUT WHAT I HAVE BEEN TELLING THEM, AND I HAVE BEEN MEETING WITH BOARDS AND PRESIDENTS AND SO FORTH, IS THAT THEY SHOULD PRIORITIZE ACADEMIC FREEDOM IN TERMS OF WHATEVER THEY'RE DOING, AND SOME OF THE REASONS THAT WE'RE SEEING AT THE MOMENT IS NOT PRIORITIZING ACADEMIC FREEDOM.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ARRESTING STUDENTS SHOULD BE THE LAST RESORT.

FOR ANY REASON.

I SAW A STATEMENT THIS MORNING FROM THE PRESIDENT OF WESLEYAN, WHO SAID AS LONG AS THERE'S NOT VIOLENCE -- I UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS AND DIFFICULTIES WITH GRADUATIONS AND PEOPLE CAN'T USE THAT SPACE, IT'S NOT AN EASY SPACE, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED BY MASS ARRESTS OR MASS SUSPENSIONS, AND ONLY ENERGIZES THE PROTESTERS IN SOME WAY, TOO, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT.

MM: KENNETH STERN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

KS: IT'S BEEN MY HONOR TO BE WITH YOU, I THANK YOU VERY MUCH.